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Antonin Scalia and Stephen Breyer debate the Constitution

Antonin Scalia and Stephen Breyer debate the Constitution

Patrick Ishmael

1:35:57

Overview

This video features a debate between Supreme Court Justices Antonin Scalia and Stephen Breyer on the interpretation of the U.S. Constitution. Moderated by Jan Crawford, the discussion delves into the fundamental question of whether judges should prioritize applying the law as written or strive for a just outcome in each case. Scalia emphasizes originalism, adhering to the text's meaning at the time of adoption, while Breyer advocates for a more pragmatic approach, considering the Constitution's purpose and consequences in contemporary society. They explore the concept of a 'living Constitution,' the role of judicial activism, and the challenges of interpreting broad constitutional phrases like 'due process' and 'equal protection.' The debate highlights their differing methodologies in constitutional interpretation and their views on the judiciary's role within a democratic system.

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Chapters

  • •Introduction by Eugene Meyer (Federalist Society) and Lisa Brown (American Constitution Society).
  • •Jan Crawford Greenberg (ABC News) introduced as moderator.
  • •The central question: Is a judge's role to apply the law (Holmes) or to do justice (Hans)?
  • •Both justices agree that applying the law is paramount, but the ultimate goal is justice.
  • •Justice Scalia recounts a case where applying the statute led to a personally repugnant outcome (Indian child adoption).
  • •Scalia emphasizes that appellate judges must establish principles that govern many cases, not just the one at hand.
  • •Justice Breyer acknowledges cases where the law's conclusion is personally difficult but stresses the impact on millions.
  • •Breyer explains that unclear statutory language or constitutional application often leads to differing opinions (5-4 splits).
  • •Scalia argues that judges should not be criticized solely based on whether one likes the outcome of a case.
  • •He advocates for 'garbage in, garbage out' – interpreting statutes reasonably, even if the result seems flawed.
  • •Both justices agree that subjective judgment should not significantly influence case outcomes.
  • •Scalia notes that he has disagreed with outcomes but felt bound by the law.
  • •Breyer outlines six tools: text, history, tradition, precedent, purpose, and consequence.
  • •He suggests emphasizing purpose and consequence can keep judges connected to the legislature and the people.
  • •Scalia expresses concern that purpose and consequence invite subjective judgment.
  • •Scalia argues that focusing on text and original meaning is more objective and prevents judges from imposing personal views.
  • •Scalia clarifies he does not find the concept of a 'living Constitution' idiotic, but rather the metaphor of a 'living organism' is.
  • •Breyer explains the 'living Constitution' idea as applying enduring values to changing circumstances and a larger population.
  • •Scalia counters that applying enduring values to new technologies is different from changing the meaning of pre-existing rights (e.g., death penalty, abortion).
  • •Scalia believes changes should come through the amendment process or legislature, not judicial reinterpretation.
  • •Breyer views the Constitution's core as democracy, protecting basic rights, dividing power, and upholding the rule of law.
  • •He sees the court's job as guarding boundaries, not interfering with democracy, acting like a 'boundary patrol'.
  • •Scalia argues that judges overstep when they give the Constitution a meaning different from its original understanding.
  • •Scalia believes 'empty bottle' phrases like 'due process' should be filled by Congress, not judges.
  • •Breyer discusses the difficulty of interpreting the Establishment Clause, citing school voucher cases.
  • •He suggests the clause's purpose is to minimize religious dissension and that its interpretation has evolved with societal diversity.
  • •Scalia criticizes the modern interpretation of the Establishment Clause, arguing it wrongly prohibits favoring religion over non-religion.
  • •Scalia points to historical practices like Thanksgiving proclamations and legislative chaplains as evidence against a strict separation of church and state.
  • •Breyer clarifies his 'pragmatic' approach involves considering the system's objectives and ensuring rules 'work'.
  • •Scalia questions this, suggesting it invites subjective judgment and that the 'original meaning' is clearer.
  • •Both justices agree 'activist judge' is a pejorative label, meaning a judge substituting personal opinion for law.
  • •Scalia believes a judge crosses the line when they give the Constitution a meaning different from its original adoption.

Key Takeaways

  1. 1Judges are tasked with applying the law, but the ultimate aim is justice.
  2. 2Appellate judges must create legal principles that apply broadly, not just to individual cases.
  3. 3Judicial interpretation involves balancing adherence to text with consideration of purpose and consequences.
  4. 4Originalism focuses on the Constitution's meaning at the time of adoption, while a 'living Constitution' approach adapts it to modern circumstances.
  5. 5The debate over constitutional interpretation centers on whether judges should be bound by historical meaning or have flexibility to address contemporary issues.
  6. 6The concept of 'judicial activism' is often used as a pejorative term for judges whose decisions are disliked.
  7. 7Judges must constrain personal views and apply the law faithfully, even when disagreeing with the outcome.
  8. 8The role of the judiciary is to guard constitutional boundaries and preserve the democratic process, not to legislate from the bench.
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